In this episode, David talks with James Kossakowski, the great-grandson of Jim Thorpe. "Path Lit by Lightning: The Life of Jim Thorpe" is available at bookstores or online at: https://davidmaraniss.com/library/path-lit-by-lightning-the-life-of-jim-thorpe/
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Thank you for taking the time for this, Jim.
Appreciate it. It's a joy to talk to you. And
this is Jim Kossakowski, the great grandson of the great Jim Thorpe.
And I take it that's your middle name is Thorpe. That is that is. And tell me about that. So at birth, your your marked is as another Thorpe.
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actually interesting. You know, the family history there with
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Jim's son, ... at a very young age
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is daughter Grace had a son named after him that, that a young age 16 years old.
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My my mom, I have an older brothers. My mom didn't want to name my brother after him because he was afraid that he might. Also Oh, so.
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But
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after my brother was fine, and everything was great. My dad kind of stepped in said, hey, you know, that's, I'm not superstitious. Let's name him, Jim. So I was fortunate enough to be named after him. Good for you. And you named your son after him as well. Is that right? Correct? Yes. So there's a lineage there. Now. Tell me about about what age did you start to realize who your great grandfather was. So, you know, obviously, strange as soon as they started playing sports,
1:40
you know, people would compare, not compare, but, you know, talk about
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the legend he was and, and how great he was in football and
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playing professional baseball and everything. So as soon as I started playing sports, you know, 810 years old, I started, you know, hearing a little bit about him, and that totally understanding what he actually accomplished. But what as soon as you get into high school and college, you're looking at some of the things that he accomplished and how he did those was just amazing.
2:15
So I started telling him as I got older, I see. Did your did your grandmother or your mother talk about him much when you're a kid? Oh, yeah. So
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I grew up in the Chicagoland area. Right.
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My, my grandmother had moved back to Oklahoma.
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So we would spend our summers going back to visit her.
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Yeah, she was
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very humble about, you know, She's the eldest child of his.
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He had albums, similar first, his professional sports team, she would have
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just different memorabilia, just just in her closet. And when we come up and visit, we go through some of this stuff and look at it. And
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this stuff is pretty cool.
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We have it in a special place. She's like, I don't know, what do you do with your family stuff?
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It's in the closet. So she's like, Yeah, this is my stuff. That's
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pretty cool. And this was Gail, the oldest of the three daughters. This was Yeah. And she was in yellow. Oklahoma. Where was she? Yeah, she was in? Yes. Yes. Which is where they live for quite a while as well. And I know that she was
a good athlete herself at the Schelotto Indian School. Yes. Great. play basketball. And yes, yeah. So yes, down from there as well. And how about your mother when she tells you stories to? Oh, yeah. So my mother was the one who
4:02
kind of left everything in perspective and just kept, you know, oh, this is this is what really happened. This is what you know, my mother and
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everybody would tell me and we would talk about his family, different pictures and stuff that we go over and review. She was
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very knowledgeable about everything that was family related.
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And tell me about the Casa kowski side of your family. How did
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Yeah, so my mom and dad met in Chicago.
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My grandmother had been living in Chicago. She was doing some work for the Girl Scouts of America
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officer's club Chicagoland area. So that's what brought my mom there.
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She met my father.
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My dad
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very
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You're very tough. He's a hard working guy.
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He was a teacher in younger days. And he just constantly worked and worked and worked and really drove that work ethic into my brother and myself and
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just
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gave us that grinded out perspective.
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But I think perseverance is a theme of the whole Thorpe story in many ways. Oh, absolutely.
And,
you know, he,
he endured a lot, especially after his playing days were over. But one of the one of the amazing legacies, I think about Jim Thorpe is the, the family he, you know, he brought into the world, not only his seven children, but you know, grandchildren and great grandchildren. It's quite a successful broad family, isn't it? Absolutely. Thank you. That's probably his greatest accomplishment. Right?
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Yeah. I mean,
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I was raised to be a good person, you know.
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Just to be people well, and respect everybody and
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what you accomplish in life is, is
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it's important
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to be a good person, as it is to follow up with your accomplishments. I mean,
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people it's not good.
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You know, your great grandmother.
Ava.
thought she was Native American, from, you know, during her childhood, and then discovered she wasn't basically
I'm wondering about your grandmother, and how the Native American part of, of the family has been passed down, if it has, and to what extent and how you feel about that? You know, I feel like this is one of the toughest things for, for me to come to grips, I can only imagine what it was for, for seven Hiva.
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The way the country
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was moving the Native Americans and into the American culture
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was if they accomplish what they set out to do.
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So my heritage is somewhat confusing, right?
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I can't really associate with the Native Americans. My problem, my mom and my grandmother were the second Fox tribal roles.
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i
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It's, um, distance from
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the Native American groups there in Oklahoma.
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Especially because now I live in Chicago, I grew.
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So it's quite challenging.
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My character just somewhat difficult.
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How do you deal with that? Have you tried to study Native American history or?
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Absolutely.
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You know,
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you had mentioned that, you know, you think some of his challenges as he got older, were his toughest challenges. You know, I go back and look at, you know, what happened to his family?
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Oh, absolutely. Yes. You know, looking at his childhood, most most people would think
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he lived in Oklahoma, he went to school in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, can you imagine, you know,
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being 1214 years old, going to
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halfway across the country to go to school. I mean, I send my children three miles away from my house to go to school. You know, he's, you know, 2000 miles away.
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At a young age like that,
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especially after losing your twin brother. Yes. So here he is, by himself.
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Dates away from his family.
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loses his mom when he's 13 years old. His father 16. He's basically orphaned at that point.
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He did have a wonderful relationship with his brother and sister. And, but yet, how do you go continue what your education in Pennsylvania which your know your father wanted you to go through,
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be able to come back and bounce that back at home to Oklahoma. It took that it's easier to go without a parent's guide.
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I think that's probably one of the most tried.
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Was his younger years. I'm not having
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fun
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other, help him through the Olympics only match what his father would have been? How big of a help he would have been? If he would have been there for him during the Olympics,
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to
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the stripping of his medals and
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how we could help him.
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Imagine what he went through at that young age.
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You're absolutely right, Jim, there was a lot of difficulties. And you sort of caught between two worlds during that whole period, you know, between what he wanted to be an Oklahoma and what what was expected of him in Pennsylvania, lost both parents during that period. You're right. I mean, his whole life was was a test and every possible way. You know, one, one could say that, you know, he's one of the first true Americans. I mean,
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some of his family was Native American mom was from Europe,
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bringing, seeing the first almost a first generation through Americans.
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He had to go through as much difficulties, you know, trying to relate to his culture, his heritage, as I do.
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Still don't know that I fully comprehend it.
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And yeah, what do you want those gold medals? He was not considered an American citizen yet.
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So,
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you know, when when people would ask him what his favorite sports were, he wouldn't say football or baseball or track and field.
You he'd say hunting and fishing.
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But he also looked, Oh, go on. I'm sorry. Yeah, I suppose you mean competitive sports, right.
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But he also love to wrestle. You know, he was constantly wrestling with all the other baseball players. Sometimes the manager was worried he'd hurt them. So I can see where that was passed down to his great grandson. We're sure first year.
That's my thought of you. And your brother as well. Right? Yeah. Yeah. My brother was
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at Illinois, four time NCAA qualifier.
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Wonderful athlete.
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And you were also a qualifier? Is that right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. How did you get into wrestling? So when I was little, I started playing football. My brothers two years older than I.
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He was playing football. And he was a little heavier in eighth grade. So one of his football coaches said
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Sandtown into wrestling. It'll help discipline he'll get his weight down to get really strong. And I'm upset. Sure. So he actually took us to the our first practice and
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got us into wrestling at the
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Sunday Highlanders program and
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we met the head coach, there was Jean Peters, just a wonderful
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gentleman who just taught us everything just good disciplinarian and pup this could be
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really like, working with him. And he just got us into wrestling and we loved it.
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And you passed your sports G done to your kids as well. Right? Yeah. You know, another thing that Jim liked to do on the pond at Carlisle, he was actually a very good ice skater. Yeah, I had actually heard that he was offered a
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professional contract with Weaver was in Toronto. Yes, yeah. Yes. That's pretty cool. Well, he was
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he never played organized hockey. So I don't know how it would have gone but, but he was certainly he could have been an enforcer. Right? Well, it's just show the talent and the name that he had built for himself there where people would would love to have him on that team, right. Oh, yeah. And am I correct that your son is occupied. My son is a hockey player. So
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out of him, he's, he just graduated. So
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they'll try to figure out what he's going to do now. But
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I think he will just wonderful goalie.
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Very competitive.
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Did a great job. So
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did you pass the Thorpe knowledge down to your kids?
Or the interest in their their great, great grandfather? Yeah, so everything, everything that I study and read about.
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My kids sometimes laugh and joke with me, but they always got questions for me.
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And I just love talking about it. So they know. They're looking for an hour to kill
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me to talk about it.
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And so you
Your grandmother Gail had a lot of memorabilia and
scrapbooks and whatever. Are they now in your possession? Yes, they are.
But tell me about what you have of sort of the Thorpe museum up in the castle Caskey. House. Yeah. So so most of the stuff that I have is
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number one, I represent my grandmother's state with Oklahoma Sports Museum. Okay, all of my grandmother's memorabilia.
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A majority of it, they have, yes, at the
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new facility there in Oklahoma City.
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That collection I oversee, and I worked with Mike Chang over there, just wonderful folks at the Oklahoma Sports Museum. Justin Winder curator there, they take a wonderful job with the stuff they do there and the different displays they make with my stuff.
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Most of the stuff that I like to see is the photos, the family photos, and some of that stuff.
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Those are some of my favorites. Get to see, what year was this? And where were they then, you know,
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we're all over the country. So, you know, being that great of us sports hero, you know, he's a New York, Ohio,
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California, back in Oklahoma. He was all over that all over the country, and coasting. You know, he was in 20 states during his
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career or post career, you know, still trying to make a living, you know, he was he really was a national traveler. He sure was
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to travel.
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Yeah. So when you think of him, tell me about sort of your image of what he represents. So the first thing I'll tell you is exactly what my grandmother told me. This is just your great grandfather. I mean, he's, he's my father.
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When he would come to town, we would just
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enjoy being around each other. You know, he, he loved his kids, loved his children. They would play hard, you know, they just keep forever, they just jump all over him. I mean,
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he was a caring person.
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My grandmother told me one story.
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It gotten into town, at taking him.
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Her and her sister out to breakfast. And, you know, so many people just come to the table and thankful to meet them. You know, she's
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young, she's not quite a teenager yet.
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She doesn't understand why everybody comes to see dad, right.
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And he was just so generous. He would find people in need. And, you know, one, one story she had told me was, they were at breakfast and Publix was worried about being able to pay a few bills and getting some things done. And, you know, after he paid for their breakfast, we just took out his wallet and gave the guy as much money as he had in his pocket.
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A very nice, generous guy.
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Generous, not quite to a fault because you can never say someone's you never say it's a fault to be generous, but but sometimes, you know, he ran out of money because of that generosity. Oh, sure. And, you know, most people look at material things.
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He did not he did not
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hold his possessions higher than his friendships in his personal
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relationships with people.
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And at that
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he cared about people.
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So it was in 1983, when they sort of started to
give him back his Do you know, with the, with the
metals that were not really the real metal.
So it seems like it's still a struggle all of these years later to get them full recognition of his records and his trophies and his metal. It is it is and you know, I I actually do have in my possession, the metal that was given to my grandmother for her. Oh, you do?
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That's one of the pieces that
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I keep at home with me.
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Are you active at all in the in the effort to get his records fully restored?
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So, you know, over the years,
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my
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my Uncle Mike Kohler
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was,
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was one who his mother had put
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should push forward. Anti grace.
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My grandmother, they were, they were about
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doing as much as they could to help and they had so much good help. So many came people trying to help them push to get it back. It's kind of fallen on deaf ears now.
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You know, we just
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I would love to see another push, I would love to be able to go to Lausanne Switzerland and
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talk to the Olympic Committee.
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People about what should have happened, get his records back in the original books, how they should make, not as a coach Campion side note.
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You know, I just don't
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I don't know how to do that yet.
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So I
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know there's some efforts out there, the bright cast strong team is trying to work towards that.
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But
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not as much.
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Jim, have you been to Jim Thorpe PA? I have.
What was the what was that experience like for you?
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It was a beautiful area. I love the the town there's is so cute one sides, so different than the other side of the river.
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But I really loved my stay there.
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Just just good folks there.
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The area where his body is buried is just a beautiful little park. They had it very well kept.
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So proud that they've kept the name over the years, I know there's been a lot of attempts to get his body removed and put back on don't want Indian reservations.
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My grandmother was was against that move.
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I would support her wishes.
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So I'm very thankful of the people there in terms of keeping the name keeping his name alive and
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the family in that manner.
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Yeah, there was sort of a split between the daughters and the sons over that issue. Yeah. It was the sons who were pushing to bring his bones back to Oklahoma and Charlotte, Gail and Grace all sort of came to peace with a being up there in Pennsylvania. Different ways. Yeah. Being a little older, when he passed, some of that burden fell on them.
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Unfortunately, they didn't have any say in where he was very.
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I'm quite certain they would have probably kept him at home and Oklahoma. If they had their choice. Yes. But because of the way things happened, they accepted it and moved on. So
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yeah, it was the third wife who did all of that.
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But
23:05
did that dispute or this disagreement?
Was there ever been much contact between the two sides of the family, the sons and the daughters and the great grandsons? You know,
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the children, they had a very close relationship. Even even though they were spread out over the country at times, they were very close. They talked a lot. Not that they agreed on everything, but they loved each other dearly. My grandmother always appreciated and loved her brothers.
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But they were just wonderful. And they were wonderful people. And, you know, they they were dead, dead set against getting his body back in into Oklahoma where they were they believed that should be. And, you know, I don't support their decisions and trying to do that. But I understand why they would want that. It wasn't my grandmother's view, to disrupt his body. So, you know, I'd stayed and supported that.
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But, and those sons said they had nothing against Jim Thorpe, Pennsylvania. I mean, they weren't. It wasn't that sort of antagonism. They just thought it was the proper place for for him to go here. Like to Oklahoma. And I also think, tell me if you agree that because
your grandmother and the other two daughters were sort of one wife removed, you know, in other words, there's a second life without a third one, whereas the boys was right after that the third wife came along so you can sort of see just in terms of family dynamics, why they would have a different feeling about her. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, you know, I, I don't know that. Her third wife was held in high regard with the daughters either you
25:02
They were not happy with some of the decisions he made in the approach of
25:11
burying her husband. So it was, it was a difficult time for the family.
25:17
Yeah, it was. Although Charlotte did go to
the mock chunks with the third, with Patsy, when she first went there to make the deal, but still,
I think they all had an understanding of what she was up to.
Looking out for yourself as much as for anybody else. Oh, sure. Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, as you've studied, Jim Thorpe, there are also a lot of myths about what would you say are sort of the misconceptions about your great grandfather? Well, I do think one of the myths is that,
25:57
you know, on the boat, he didn't, he didn't work out. He wasn't, he was a lazy Indian, and all that kind of
26:05
that to me was,
26:07
you know,
26:11
I'm not wanting to say strongly. It's somewhat ignorant, right.
26:17
You don't understand that. You know, someone with that upbringing, the type of workouts they went through, and the regiment they went through.
26:26
He was
26:28
one of the hardest working guys, you'll see.
26:32
He did love Lena, laying in the shade, though. Like any because we're
26:37
in a hot summer day, but
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you know, the preparations he had or anything.
26:45
He studied it more than they would imagine, right? He just had a unique way of looking at things and
26:52
some people are blessed with the ability to watch somebody do something that's very well. And then
27:00
he had that, that gift. So
27:04
he was a hard worker.
27:06
Yeah, he could watch some somebody do something and then repeat it and do it better than they did.
But you're right about that. That myth about the boat that was actually Grantland Rice spread that myth,
who in great hilarious love Jim Thorpe and promoted him his whole life. But there was something about sort of the notion that while he was just such a natural, he didn't need to practice which was not true at all. There's even pictures of him running on the boat and
his teammates were talking about what he did. So
it's part of that myth.
So what's next with you in terms of Thor?
27:48
Well, you know, as I get older, I just like continuing to
27:53
communicate and talk about him. I would love to promote, continue to show what what kind of person he was, what kind of family we are, right?
28:04
He's a legend. There's no doubt about it.
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I'd
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love to see.
28:14
You know, because because of my position with with the Native Americans, and I sit here, kind of caught between my two Heritage's.
28:26
I'd love to see more promotion of, of the Native American cultures, I'd love to see
28:34
a closer relationship to those who may not be 100% Native American,
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be more in tune to their heritage and what it's like to be there.
28:48
With them, things in Illinois can be a little stronger courts, learning about the different cultures there.
28:57
The Native American history in America, it's tragic.
29:03
What what the Native Americans went through
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you know, the general public really doesn't want to hear about
29:12
that track.
29:15
Fella tears. I mean, I can't imagine what what my heritage what those people went through back then.
29:25
Almost related to what's going on in Ukraine now.
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You know, just people invading the country and just taking advantage of the people there's not, it's not right.
29:38
So, I mean, just
29:43
bracing my heritage. I think a little more is the future for me understanding it, coming to peace with it, right.
29:49
teach my children to understand it a little better than I did.
30:03
"Path lit by lightning: The life of Jim Thorpe" is available online and bookstores on August 9. Visit DavidMaraniss.com To order your copy. This has been an episode of the David Maraniss "Ink in Our Blood" podcast. We hope you enjoyed it, and that you'll subscribe to the Ink in Our Blood podcast on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify or whichever podcast service you prefer. If you loved it, we'd love it if you left a rating and review ink in our blood is produced by Metamorphosis Agency, LLC. Music has been written and provided by Monika Ryan. Ink in Our Blood is hosted by Sarah Maraniss Vander Schaaff. Thank you for listening.