David continues the discussion with Suzan Shown Harjo, (Cheyenne & Hodulgee Muscogee) recipient of a 2014 Presidential Medal of Freedom, and renowned advocate for Native American rights. She is a poet, writer, lecturer, curator, and policy advocate who has helped Native peoples recover more than one million acres of tribal lands and fight against the use of racist mascots. "Path Lit by Lightning: The Life of Jim Thorpe" is available at bookstores or online at: https://davidmaraniss.com/library/path-lit-by-lightning-the-life-of-jim-thorpe/
0:07
Well, good afternoon. Hello. How are you doing this afternoon?
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Just fine, just fine.
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I love your necklace. Tell me about it.
0:21
Thank you. A friend of mine. Got it from a friend of hers. And it's in two pieces. And one was two strands and one with a third. That she I guess she usually makes it with two and I'd wanted three. So here it is. And the woman who made it is Piute. And they're made with number nine beads.
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Larger representation or meaning?
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No. Okay. They're
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just beautiful.
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Just beautiful. color and design work.
1:10
That's for sure.
1:11
Well, when I yeah,
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this is our second conversation, I greatly enjoyed the first one. And you are a little more critical of it than you need it to be. I think we'll have wonderful material from it. But there were a few things that that we didn't cover. So that's what we'll do today. And the one that you were most eager to talk about was the second of the plays that you wrote, reclaiming one star. And as I understand it that has a lot of characters in it that are of interest to me for my book on Jim Thorpe, including Richard Henry Pratt and Pop Warner and of course, mostly a lone star deeds. So let's take it in stages. But tell me first of all, how you came up on the idea of writing this play.
2:14
I came into possession of a lengthy FBI report that had been done an investigation of William Henry Dietz. And and it was impossible to get from the FBI, but another friend of mine, figured out how to do it through a vendor who had transcripts of court documents and investigations from that period. And got it and then we put it on the National Museum of the American Indian website. And without any fanfare or anything, and you sort of have to know what you were looking for. And it has it's the investigation they did of him, that this
3:17
was the investigation they did up during World War One is that correct?
3:21
Yes. He had failed to to appear to be drafted saying that he was an a non citizen Indian. So he didn't have to be drafted. And of course, that was at a time when all sorts of nonsense US citizen, Indian people were volunteering and going to World War One in higher numbers proportionally, proportionately to the total population than any other group of segment of American society is so they did a full investigation of him because of his claim to be Indian. It
4:21
to repeat. So the listeners know who he was, he was. I mean, in terms of why is it of interest to us at Thorpe, he was a student and an Assistant art director at the Carlisle Indian Industrial School. He played on the football team, and he became a football coach after that in many different universities. And of course, the play reveals and as other documents in the FBI documents reveal that he was not Native American.
4:58
Both parents were just Armen, the team propaganda the Pro Football Inc propaganda was an is that he was a beloved coach of the team and that he of the Washington football team and that he is a full blooded Su from South Dakota. So he was not, he was full blooded German, German American from Wisconsin and was apparently brought into to Carlisle by Pop Warner, the coach. And the way he was brought in had to have been done with complicity by Pratt and Warner. It had to have been done at the highest levels. And because they they reached back into the files of a student from South Dakota, who was from the red shirt band of Oglala Lakota people. And his name was James one star. And there's their two prominent families of one stars on Pine Ridge, the Oglala Sioux tribe in South Dakota, and she calls you the Rosebud Sioux Tribe. And they're both related, but they live on adjoining reservations. So he had a very studious person, there's a photo of him that exists. He's not at all like, Lone Star dates. It was a beefy kind of guy. And there's a very slight Tolson young man who left Carlisle but not as a student, he left Carlisle as a member of the army of the US Army, and went to the south, to the southern United States for orientation, I guess in surveillance and, and how to evade the enemy and in wartime, and he was assigned to a covert war, to be a soldier in a covert war, which was the US is participation on the side of Cuba, in Cuba's war of independence against Spain. And so he died in Cuba. This is what star you're talking about when Star died in Cuba. And his family was not told that he was in the army was not told that he died. They were not told anything. All of this information was kept from them. And then 20 years later, or so 15 years later, this German American man that Pop Warner wanted on the football team showed up and he was with the name Lone Star and the credentials of James one star. And he began writing to and he played football. And this is a real con artist and a user. He there was a woman who was older than he was, and unmarried and an art teacher, a native woman, Angel Jakara Ho Chunk Winnebago and she fell in love with him. And he married her and in secret so they were married while he was a student. And then he was then others on the football team got busted, and for being ringers that Pop Warner had brought brought them in. And they were either non native, or
10:15
way adults adults in their 30s or both. And so they that was a big public scandal. But Lonestar Dietz was not a part of that. He was affected by it and that very hastily his status was changed from student to assistant coach to Pop Warner, and assistant art teacher, to Angel to Cora, his secret wife. So he as a faculty member, he was not caught up in the student scandal of non Indians. And he began writing to the sister of James one star to Sally Eagle Hart, as her brother. So he was given their their correspondence. And he picked it up as if not much time had elapsed, and he wrote to her as, as her brother and did that for some time. And part of it was trying to get his annuity money, his lease money, and part of it was trying to get his land allotment. And of course, he knew no one would show up. And let her sister James one star was dead, which his sister didn't know. And, but he long star Dietz knew it. And so he wasn't afraid that he would be exposed. But no, he wasn't until there was the actual trial of his draft evasion. And his in the prosecution, the US federal entities brought in Sally Eagle Hart, the sister of James one star, and she said, why are you writing to me? You're not my brother.
12:35
And at the time, he was the coach of Washington State University. Is that right?
12:40
He was at Pullman, right? He was that and Pop Warner continue, even though Pop Warner was was fired in in the middle of all of that. Because of the scandals, and in him and his role in
12:58
them, it was pushed out he wasn't quite fired. He went to Pittsburgh videos. Yeah,
13:03
yes, you're right. You're right. And, and so was prep pushed out. And he chose to retire. And rather suddenly, and and Pop Warner had chosen his way out rather suddenly. So
13:25
we It also said, there are so many interesting aspects to that story. One, of course, is how it reveals the finality of Pop Warner, along with this, Charlotte to lodestar deeds. But what I'm curious about from you is, why would why would someone do this? What was the motivation for this charlatan to pretend that he was an Indian?
13:50
Well, we see it over and over again, people attempting to to pass as Native people when in fact they are not. In the 1930s, there was an act, the precursor to the Indian Arts and Crafts Act, which makes it a crime to form remote yourself as a native artist as an artist who makes a product that supposedly native made when it's not and also punishes the promoters of that person of the fraud. But the precursor to that was called was called the pseudo Indian Act. And it was very just an elegant spare Act, which which criminalized impersonations of Indians. And that was that it made felony offense of out of impersonating an American Indian,
15:00
it was motivated by the fact that many people were impersonating Indians.
15:05
Yes. And why were they? Why were they doing it? Well, it's almost for money. Okay. Yeah, it was always for profits. So they were doing it to try to get land, they were doing it to try to get a job. They were doing it to get on the lecture series. They were doing it to get into school. Same reasons, they do it today. And it's a very common practice. It someone has once talked to me about it being the kind of thing that you see with military with with impersonators of military heroes, that they were metals they haven't earned. They talk about engagement in combat situations where they never work. And they make up an entire hero status for themselves. And there's something in the the person who was spinning this out for me, really made sense to me that, that it is that kind of thing that people find some sort of self esteem, raising, Jolt from people believing they are heroic, or they're, they're something they're not.
16:46
What does that say about the perception that that lighter white people would have about what it means to be an Indian sort of the complexity of that, you know, sort of diminishing them on one hand and making them seem normal or heroic on the other?
17:08
Well, yeah, that's right. And except they invariably are well received by other non natives. And why because they're familiar. They are non native. And they are, so even if they adopt a persona of the savage Indian, they are well received. And they're especially well received if they adopt the persona of the noble savage. Sort of Iron Eyes, Cody shedding a tear for an environmental ad about cleaning up America, you know, don't throw trash. And, you know, he's Italian on both sides, Italian American, and never was native, but lived almost his whole life in the public eye, fooling lots and lots of people thinking he was native. And this goes on. There is lots and lots of, of these frauds.
18:31
Yes, well, lodestar Dietz was one, another person close to Jim Thorpe was Sylvester long, you know, portrayed himself as chief Long Lance and he was from various different tribes, you know, as he made up his story.
18:51
I think actually, he he was native on one side of his family. They were black, and on the other side, they were native, but the Lumbees were, as many are today. Not held in high self esteem or self not in high esteem, by other natives by many who for a racist reason, because they're mixed with interested and because they're not federally recognized, and they're very, they're about 40,000 Lumbee Indians. They were the people who ran the kk k out in Robeson County, North Carolina, in the 50s. And I would think that they would be given heroes status wherever they go, but um, They the Cherokee Eastern band of Cherokees has worked very hard to cultivate white senators, South and North Carolina to to support them and to oppose any sort of recognition for the Lumbees. That was not so much a situation back then for this
20:31
lamps fellow, but he claimed he was Cherokee not loved the
20:35
IE, he claimed several black foot, black, black foot, all sorts of things. But So as it turns out, I mean, I just felt I had to say that because the board he actually, but it's sort of the same thing. What what motivated him to choose other tribes? Well, because they were acceptable. And he was trying to, I guess, get away from being one beat and being black on the other side. So you know, it goes right back to white racism. You have Forrest Carter, who did the education of little tree, who was actually a kk k member who wrote the speech for George Wallace, segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever do this. And he wrote, The Outlaw Josey, Boyles, a lot of things that people think are so authentically native, and were written by a native person, in fact, they're not. So this was a lone star, each was not original about anything, he was not authentic and not original. And Pop Warner wasn't either, they just pick people who would fit a certain body type and slot that was needed at school and didn't care who they exploited. And the doing of that
22:17
will pop border is pretty much the villain of my biography of Jim Thorpe in many ways. They had a complicated relationship, but the water turned against him and Jim's moment of greatest peril. That lied about it. I'm curious about your perspective, after looking at lodestar and other things. What do you thought of top water? It is, will it come along?
22:41
I totally agree. I'm glad you're exposing him as a villain because he's been such a hero to so many people. I mean, look at all of these little kids who are in Pop Warner, the Pop Warner League and my goodness, it's sort of like having a child abuser there with the kids are trying to trying to use as as a role model, and it's being forced on them. And that that's, that's so such an ugly thing that that's still happening. I hope that at some point, his name is taken off all the the little kids stuff because he did he was a bad man. He was a bad man.
23:39
I imagine, Suzanne that, that you've been following the congressional hearings about your friend Dan Snyder. Not fair, Dan Snyder, if anything will finally come up that?
23:58
Well, I mean, my my secret wish is that enterprising reporters and editors are going to come across a cache of emails that have nothing to do with sexual harassment, or the women in the front office, but have to do with me and Amanda Blackhorse and Julian Papan and Courtney's Oh, Ty, and others who were part of the 25 years of litigation against pro football Inc. and who were especially vilified by by the Pro Football Inc. Enterprise and all the business associates have.
24:52
Have you heard anything about that possibility of lobbying? I'm sure those emails exist.
24:57
I'm sure they exist, and I'm I'm really looking forward to the first call I get. So and I'm not at all surprised. Because it's, it's the same thing. I mean, sexual abuses. And assault is is about power, it's not about sex. And what happened to us was was, well, if you have to sort of roll in money to do with power, that it's, you know, money slash power, power slash money. And that's the same sort of tactic that was used against the woman who litigated against racism, of pro football and against their racism against Native peoples. And we, we were bullied in that same way that people are bullied in an office situation or out of an office situation by people who think they can just take liberties with with women or with anyone, they they perceive us as vulnerable. What were
26:11
particular the elements of their bullying?
26:15
Well, besides having people go through our garbage, sort of thing, they they there were people who stalked us who not to this moment, but to this year, continue to make death threats to us. Now, whether or not all of them are on the payroll of pro football, Inc. I don't know. Some of them are. But most of them do this stuff anonymously. And they have paid fans who I have talked to who wear these ridiculous outfits and are paid for they're they're whooping it up like idiots and pretending to be natives. They also have paid songs. And one of the people we didn't know who it was, but who did not work for pro football Inc. US used to call and say things like, and we had tape, I mean, it was a tape machine, you know, answering machine. And, and faxes. Fortunately, it wasn't emails, but we had faxes and tapes and, and did take him to court and won a restraining order for three years. And so that was good. And by the end of the second year, he had, I guess, moved on to someone else and found another person to focus his hostile fixation on. But one of his calls was pretty chilling. He said, Take a good look in the mirror. Because of that, oh, I talked to I talked to the team this morning, and just take a good look in the mirror. Because that's the last time you're ever going to look the same. Oh, now, that to me, is I mean, besides that being emotionally volatile, it is. Even worse than someone saying, I'm gonna kill you, I'm gonna do this or that, because it requires some sort of thought. Anyway, I was totally convinced that he had something to do with the football team, and no one has disputed that I actually made that a part of our court record in the Blackhorse case, where I was an expert witness and in my deposition for the Pro Football Inc, attorneys. I'm made the our pursuit of this particular person and saying such things part of the court record and suggested that pro football and would be in a better position than I was to determine what the financial relationship might have been between the two and I never heard anything About that, no. And, and there was no. There was no denial and there was no rebuttal at all. Just silence. So,
30:12
when you were when you were threatened, did you ever go to authorities to record it?
30:17
I did not know that. Yes, I went to a judge. Okay. Yeah. And fortunately, I had a really good stalking lawyer, Suzanne Jackson, who actually was recommended to me by Jeremy, by, by Jamie Raskin.
30:39
Don't get better than Jamie in terms of costs.
30:43
And she had run one of the clinics at AU long while he was working there. And so he was saying that she would be really good since she had helped write a lot of the stalking laws. And so and she was she was great. And we she won that restraining order against him. And we fortunate fortunately, Drew, a woman judge who didn't question i She, she had piles of faxes and recording. So she didn't. She was not skeptical. She was not she was judgmentally and got right to the point of all of it, and great. And that was that was terrific. So and it worked. But what Council counselor, Jackson told me was not to be glib or cavalier about believes in people who are stalking you, because you just don't know when they're threatening words will turn into threatening actions. And that's really at the heart of what we were pursuing pro football ank about was the the way that the attitudes against Native people the racism exhibited by their actions against Native people to dehumanizing an objectification of us the way that translated into actions against our people,
32:34
or does that translate into the larger world of today? So many ways, right?
32:40
Yes, absolutely. So, you know, more later, we'll see about how, how we might have been referred to or, I mean, I know how we were referred to on the record, we don't need any proof of their disliking.
33:03
Well, you said your long fight on that whole issue of mascots and names and the diminishment of native peoples and symbol symbolic in real ways. It is one of the many fights that you've done, but I'm just so proud to interview someone who was awarded a Presidential Medal of Freedom. And tell me about that whole experience, how you how you were nominated, and how you learned about it, what it was like to meet the president, it'd be given that medal.
33:44
Well, I had met the president because I've worked on the campaign and 2007 and 2008. And I, I only worked for one president, and that was Jimmy Carter out when people were saying Jimmy who and I just knew that he was going to be president and I jumped on his campaign and and was happy to campaign for him and work in transition and and to be a political appointee in the Carter Mondale thing, and I've never worked for another president. But I had that same feeling about presidential candidate Obama, Senator Obama, when he first decided to run that he was going to make it and I had friends
34:35
most political prognosticator.
34:39
Well judge twice next time, but I want to know, yeah. And only had friends who were who were running and, and I liked them and I thought they were wonderful. And so I surprised myself by being an Obama Listen, but yet I was, and was so glad about that. The the Presidential Medal of Freedom, it, the presidents who, who the presidents of all said, you know, all the ones since Johnson and Johnson awarded the first ones from the list chosen by President Kennedy. And that was that was the start of the Presidential Medal of Freedom. And what the presidents since Johnson have said, or including Johnson, is that it's the only thing they get to do that they get to choose. So what happens at the staff level is there's a committee put together a Staff Committee, and they take ideas from people all over the White House staff, and, you know, elsewhere. And they they have so many slots each year to two award, people who who are deserving and didn't get it while they were alive. And so like John McCain was awarded this time by President Biden. And I was surprised that he had never gotten that award before. And led that finally he did. So. They just, they they put together the staff, people put together elaborate lists of if you don't choose this one, then we need to move this one over. And that, you know, so that they have the appropriate number of people who represent their values and their administration and all their political appointees and friends and family and the like. So and for some, I mean, when President Trump awarded Rush Limbaugh, it was just one guy, he gave the award to win. That's, that was his friend. And that was it for that year. And but all the other presidents have given it to anywhere between a dozen and 20 people each year. So it's your you're in a class, and my class was 2014. was just some stunning people. And then I couldn't believe that never gotten it before. And myself, and I couldn't believe that. So I've been a big fan of the Medal of Freedom, as you can tell, for years and years and years, and never thought I would get that. I mean, I never envisioned myself as having having it. And in fact, that year, I got calls from several friends in the White House, asking who I thought should get it. And I gave them two different names. One person who was living in one person, it was not both native, who should, I thought they should have gotten it. And one has sent Scott got it the year after I did. And so that was my participation. I thought, Oh, this is great. Maybe, you know, one of my people will will, will get this great medal. So then I got a call from my friend, Jody R. Shambo, who was the top ranking woman in the Obama administration, a senior advisor on the domestic policy staff to the President, and had been one of the very first people hired
39:20
for the White House staff for public engagement when she first started. And she was there for almost all the eight years. Anyway, she called and, and another person who had been Raina Thiele, who had been in OMB and then she was on the President's staff for public engagement. And so they called and told me that and I was going to get this metal and I didn't think I heard right. Because I was expecting them to say, and it's going to be are good from Billy Frank was was the one I thought would be getting it. And he's the one who did get it the next year. And so, so I just cried. I mean, there was nothing I could say to them. And they were just trying to keep me from crying. Trying to tell me some nice things about it. And you know how many people you're allowed to have in your own garage? What kind of thing it is, and all what goes on and, and that you can't tell anyone. It's all a big secret. And but, of course, you have to, since you get to have an entourage you have to juggle the people you're inviting. And so everyone I called. And, you know, be sure anyone you tell this to tell them. It's a big secret. So, my son ended up telling his, his wife who told her mother, father, brother, and pretty soon someone called a person farther out in the family called my son's partner, Sarah and said, I guess you've already heard at a time that they still thought it was a secret. Anyway, and I'm sure this is going on with everyone who gets that call. And it was it was a lovely event. I mean, everything about it was lovely. I had there's a lithograph of a meeting that treaty turned out to be a treaty, the making of an unwritten treaty between President Lincoln and heads of the Southern Plains Native nations, including one of my ancestors named starving there, or lien bear, Cheyenne chief. And there were three people in the Cheyenne delegation, and two of them were related to us and, and he was one and he was not only the head of the Cheyenne delegation, but the head of the he and 10 bears from the Comanche Nation. Were the CO heads of the entire southern plains delegation. All the chiefs, and they were the only two who spoke actually, it turned out that my ancestor was the only one who spoke we
43:02
were in Washington meeting with President Lincoln.
43:06
Yes, and the East. And the with a graph, which is a French lithograph shows that where he, in our family, we have vertigo, and he explained that there was something that would cause him to sit while he was he apologized to be sitting rather than standing. And where he was sitting was right where I was sitting in the East Room for that metal presentation. Now, what what made that really poignant is is for for me, well, it also is the very place where President Lincoln was laid out. When He lightened the state he that was in the in the eastern as well as President Kennedy, which all of this was hitting me because one person away from me, and we're all together in the in the recipients receptions and our waiting rooms, and it's an all day affair with Ethel Kennedy. And so she was there for I am sure that this resonated with her as well, where she had been with with my own ancestor when he left the so the treaty was very simple that the Southern Plains nations would get new treaties that were way from with territory that was away from the gold rushers and the people who were swarming their their countries and making them sick bringing all these diseases. So that was the native side. And the US side was they that Lincoln wanted to promise of their neutrality, the Southern Plains nations neutrality in the Civil War. And so he got that, and, and the native peoples got the new treaties, not for a couple of years, but and after Lincoln died, but did get that. So within two years of that meeting, that unwritten treaty in 1863, when bear starving bear was approached in Kansas territory, when just he and one other person were out kind of scouting areas where animal herds might be in that sort of thing. And they were approached by the Colorado volunteers who were out of their jurisdiction. And they were while he was showing them his Lincoln piece metal, he wore it. And while he was showing them, his letter of safe transit signed by the President, they murdered him. And then, just in the same year, the following year. Those same Colorado volunteers are the ones who carried out the massacre of Cheyenne and Arapaho people at Sand Creek and in Colorado territory, and they massacred and murdered, mutilated. The other two people who were in the Cheyenne delegation at that treaty meeting Warbonnet, and stands in water storage. And so just within two years of that meeting, the entire Cheyenne delegation and the President were killed by white supremacist, which was fascinating to me, always. So all of that was, I mean, there I was seated in where my ancestor had been, and about to get a medal.
48:04
Which, you know, if you want to show progress, that would be progress, because I didn't get killed for it after I left. And happily, President Obama has to level and there were no repercussions of a negative time that came with that metal. So yeah, I was super happy. The one of the sons of one of my first friends and New York City when I moved there was Carolyn Goodman, who later became the Chair of the radio station where I worked WBI. And she had been with the other mothers of three young men who who were voting rights in burrows, Mississippi hadn't
49:14
finished word Goodman Yeah, that's the Goodman
49:17
absolutely had had. They had organized themselves into a very powerful force. And I did not know her there then I knew her after that had happened and after they had brought a spotlight to to that too. You know that that's when when she started invited afterwards, she started inviting me to her salons. There for Westside get togethers and introduce me to a lot of people I never would have met otherwise. So Carolyn Goodman was was just a really important person in my life. And there were all these connections in among that class of of, of people some some there was no connection of that kind but with many there were and so it was it was a fabulous experience for me
50:27
so much of that story, so much history. American history at its worst, and it's best in some ways.
50:42
Well, here's here's John Dingell. Representative Engel, who was retired, was next to me and the two of us. Were there were three of us in that class who weren't good walkers. And so we were all supposed to stay seated. But then Stevie Wonder, yeah. Well, decided to stand down. And that was on the other side of the room. And he let everyone know that he'd like to stand during the point he was receiving it. And, but that was during rehearsals. So that was good. John Dingell and I were supposed to stay seated. And it's a very narrow staging area. And fortunately, President Barack Obama was very agile. And he, John Dingell was was we've been in a holding room and Joe Biden became President, Vice President Biden came in and was greeting us all and, and John Dingell was very, had gone from a massive figure and force to a very narrow shadow of himself. And and I didn't recognize him when I first saw him. And I had known him for a long time. Well, that happened with Joe Biden, he he brings us all very warmly and moved on into the hallway to wait to be called into the room and where the ceremony was going to be held. And John Dingell said to me, he didn't recognize me. He didn't know who I was. And, and I could see past John, and there was Joe Biden in the hallway. And he just threw up his hands. Just it hit him, he realized what he had done. And he came back and he said, Big John, and he, and they greeted each other very warmly, and started reminiscing. And, and I mean, he had known John Google since he first was elected to the Senate. So you know, a very long time. Anyway, it was a wonderful thing. And then they called his name. And so he went out. And pretty soon we're on stage. And John said, I'm going to stand up. Oh. I think it's because people weren't recognizing him. And he just wanted to wanted to show that he was strong enough to stand. And are you sure that he said yes. And then there had been a very elaborate choreography worked out during rehearsal. And the President was supposed to go behind each of us and give us more medals. And so as the president was approaching, Representative Dingell, his eyes got really big and I realized that John was standing slowly, but steadily and pretty soon he was standing and Obama kind of halted and readjusted his thinking his eyes were very big. You know, he, he didn't have to say anything. He there was the military reader who was giving that part of the, the ceremony and so he just had to do the, the, the metal of fixing and then he moved to so that was over John's Sit down, and precedent move behind me. And I said, Don't worry about me. I'm just gonna sit here. And he said, Well, I'm glad someone around here is doing something I tell them
55:11
"Path lit by lightning: The life of Jim Thorpe" is available online and bookstores on August 9. Visit DavidMaraniss.com To order your copy. This has been an episode of the David Maraniss "Ink in Our Blood" podcast. We hope you enjoyed it, and that you'll subscribe to the Ink in Our Blood podcast on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify or whichever podcast service you prefer. If you loved it, we'd love it if you left a rating and review ink in our blood is produced by Metamorphosis Agency, LLC. Music has been written and provided by Monika Ryan. Ink in Our Blood is hosted by Sarah Maraniss Vander Schaaff. Thank you for listening.